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Post by shoegirl on Sept 16, 2010 9:14:19 GMT -5
I think Avrilly & Frito are too nice. I haf actually met people who have read only 1-2 books in their lives and they think thats just fine. If they had to read books for class, they go on the internut, read synopsis & bullshit their way through the tests. Or they watch the movie or TV serial, of which the BBC has tons, from Oscar Wilde to Dickens to EM Forster. HARRY POTTER & TWILIGHT are more like abberations, I think, and TWILIGHT is lousy literature! In my post-grad counselling skills classes I have one or two ring-ins who are undergrads, notably from the Elite Athlete Mentoring Programme. These are elite athletes who are sponsored by their clubs or National Sporting bodies to develop as mentors for young players. So far, they're footballers. I'm bewildered that the College is allowing them entry to a tertiary institution when they are barely literate. I can only assume someone high up thinks it's okay for them to have the qualifications based on work other people, like club secretaries, do for them. In my class, they stand out like pimples on the proverbial. The other day I found I was having to explain what plagiarism is to one of these chappies. His assignment had a Turnitin score of 57% (that's software that finds similarity to other works submitted or on the Internet). A score of 10% to 15% is acceptable, and usually comprises references and direct quotes. Without the least idea of it not being perfectly okay to do this, he'd simply copied and pasted large chunks of essay written by his somewhat brighter classmate in the same programme. It seems his essays are dictated to a club secretary who spells phonetically, and it further appears there is no awareness in either party of correct grammar, essay structure, how to reference or to use acceptable academic language instead of colloquial phrases and clichés. His 'reference list' bore no resemblance to any reference in his essay, and in addition had also evidently been copied and pasted, with the font type and size not matching the rest of his essay. It included the lovely touch of page numbers that again, had no counterpart in his essay but most likely were highly relevant to the original article, whatever it was. Most of this list was Internet sources - which our institution regards as academic laziness. It was apparent he had simply Googled, instead of finding the relevant reference in his required course text book, which would have required him to actually, you know, read it. Fail! But if they didn't have to read and write, they'd probably mentor young players (as long as they were of similar IQ) quite adequately. So, yes, I'm very familiar with the short cuts students attempt to take. Wow I can't believe a student would even attempt to hand in a paper of that nature. Here plagiarism in university is spoke about as if it is the death sentence for a student anyways. I was always afraid of accidental plagiarism when I was in university. If I didn't reference something probably or quote it probably.. No professor ever said I did though, so that's a relief. Even my worst essays were not plagiarized.
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Post by Frito Freddie on Sept 16, 2010 22:40:43 GMT -5
When you do a report you look up the stuff in a book and then rewrite it in your own words. That's the same as google without the manual writing because copy and paste is easier. What's the difference? I have all the information in the world available to me right now. I don't know a thing about transendential meditation, I don't even know how to spell it, yet in 5 minutes I can know as much as Avril does about it thanks to the Google. Like Sunny. I find Google to be a valuable data access tool. Does it train our brains differently? Absolutely! And I applaud it. The value of Google depends on what the user brings to the game. We are training ourselves to consider . . the quality of the question that we are asking . . . in order to get meaningful data. And as far as the answers that Google provides . . . the challenge is in separating the wheat from the chaff, as it always has been with any other source of mass information, which has been the case all the way back to ancient institutions like libraries. The users of Google or libraries, for that matter . . . who can do so efficiently will beat the odds, becoming ‘smarter' and make better choices.
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Post by Avril on Sept 17, 2010 2:07:20 GMT -5
I've been thinking about this for a while. I'm not so sure this should get a fail. When you do a report you look up the stuff in a book and then rewrite it in your own words. That's the same as google without the manual writing because copy and paste is easier. What's the difference? I have all the information in the world available to me right now. I don't know a thing about transendential meditation, I don't even know how to spell it, yet in 5 minutes I can know as much as Avril does about it thanks to the Google. By tomorrow morning I will be an expert in it and in a few days I will reach enlightenment. This is the power of Google. I think the student should get at least a C for knowing how to use Google. He would get a B if he also knew how to use spell check. Google is to schoolwork as a calculator is to math. I feel I am rambling. This is because I haven't figured it out yet, but Google changes everything. I'm not sure kids even need to go to school anymore. I'm not sure I need long term memory with Google either, and I'm pretty sure Google will cause the gap between smart and stupid to get wider. The internet has changed the way people think, but only if they use it correctly. Something weird is happening to us because of the internet. I just haven't figured it out yet. I'll think about it on the bus. I'm late for work. There's a huge difference, Sunfrogoloops, between accessing information about something and truly understanding it on an experiential level. If you're talking about meditation, which I have practised daily for over three decades in many different forms, it's mos' def' not something you can understand just by reading about it. Transcendental meditation, especially - at least in the groups I've attended - allows its practitioners to connect to the meditational state in any way that suits them: lying down, sitting, walking. Others are stricter. Zen meditation required me to sit on my heels on hard wooden floorboards for hours without moving a muscle. I can't tell you much more about it, because my mind was filled with pain the entire four years I practised it. The style I practise now is loosely based on the meditation of kriya yoga, meaning the spirit moves the body to release, generate and contain energy as needed. Do you know what this means? It feels like champagne moving through the ThunderWand, central energy channel of the body that links all the chakras. But mostly I simply sit, for an hour or more every day, in total stillness and without a thought. Do you know what this means? The inner space is filled with vastness and angelic beings of profound love, wisdom and light. It's timeless and yet ever present. It makes me more awake. As for passing off someone else's work, results of research, study or thinking as your own, this is simple intellectual laziness and fraud. When a student engaged in academic study does this, it's called plagiarism and they will fail, without the chance to redeem themselves. When a student who is studying to be a professional pretends to know something through fraudulent misrepresentation, and that is seen as acceptable, they can seriously affect clients who pay good money for an expert or experienced professional. How about if Tanya went to a doctor who 'studied' medicine via Google? What about your mum? What about if a lawyer 'bought' a degree at a bogus university, but 'studied' via Google enough to dazzle ignorant clients? What if you needed a therapist or counselor who simply copied someone else's essays but had no clue about how to help you through a depression, anxiety, panic attacks, mental illness, drug dependency, divorce, death of your kids, financial disaster, homicidal attack by your ex or some random serial killer or bank robber.... ?? Google might be changing people's brains, but we still need experts and professionals who spend time, money and energy learning their craft and profession to the best of their ability.
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Post by Avril on Sept 17, 2010 2:11:46 GMT -5
In an academic context, it's still okay to paraphrase, which is what you're talking about here. However, if it's a distinct idea or original research you're paraphrasing - anything, in fact that came from someone else's work, you should cite sources and reference that person's publication, with page numbers. That's respect for intellectual property, serious research and time spent in study.
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Post by PigsnieLite on Sept 17, 2010 2:23:14 GMT -5
When you do a report you look up the stuff in a book and then rewrite it in your own words. That's the same as google without the manual writing because copy and paste is easier. What's the difference? I have all the information in the world available to me right now. I don't know a thing about transendential meditation, I don't even know how to spell it, yet in 5 minutes I can know as much as Avril does about it thanks to the Google. By tomorrow morning I will be an expert in it and in a few days I will reach enlightenment. This is the power of Google. I think the student should get at least a C for knowing how to use Google. He would get a B if he also knew how to use spell check. Google is to schoolwork as a calculator is to math. I feel I am rambling. This is because I haven't figured it out yet, but Google changes everything. I'm not sure kids even need to go to school anymore. I'm not sure I need long term memory with Google either, and I'm pretty sure Google will cause the gap between smart and stupid to get wider. The internet has changed the way people think, but only if they use it correctly. Something weird is happening to us because of the internet. I just haven't figured it out yet. I'll think about it on the bus. I'm late for work. That student couldnt even be bothered to do his copy & paste properly. And I dont think he even changed the words -- he just strung them together and thought he could fool his teachy. Or maybe he just didnt care. Therefore, it wuz right that he wuz Failed for his Idioocy. That said, I think Google did change everything. Maybe the only thing we need to learn in school is how to use the alphabet to read & write & larn foreign languages & figure out personal relationships. Everything else is applesauce. Of course we still need formal schooling if we want to become a doctor or a lawyer or an engineer or a scientist. But if we want to be a a writer, I think this is probably already in your genes, whether you google or not. Whut comes out of your pen, or your keyboard, is the fruit of your Life experience, not the results of Google. Like Frito says, Google is a tool, which can open your eyes to possibilities. Waaahhh! [PLite rolls down the landing to the kitchin for some oj.]
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Post by Avril on Sept 17, 2010 2:30:02 GMT -5
[OJ??? You are drinking something, erm, dare I say it, natural and gasp, healthy?]
(Avril quickly retires behind her alkalinising ultra-violet sanitised water filter in case she's interfered with an evolutionary change towards health and away from Coke.)
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Post by PigsnieLite on Sept 17, 2010 2:45:13 GMT -5
Nahhh, Papa just told me to finish the carton before the expiration date, which is in 2 days. Eeeek! Ghlug glug glug ....
[PLite is very sleepy after his oj.]
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Wart
Pimply Teenager
Posts: 65
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Post by Wart on Sept 17, 2010 18:59:15 GMT -5
Avril, I think you're over-reacting to Sunny's remark on "meditation" The word was just brought up as an example of something he would google. I was surprised at this admonishment. Sunny could have picked another word like papaya or "pyroclastc flow"
The remarks about kids not needing to go to school or the copying and pasting of text on the Internet to essays doesn't advocate plagiarism or that he doesn't want the doc at his hospital to be educated. When I was a kid, I totally hated writing essays and going to the library and researching. I thought it was stupid and I still think it is even though I am a scientist now.
You might want to chill.
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Post by shoegirl on Sept 17, 2010 19:06:13 GMT -5
Nahhh, Papa just told me to finish the carton before the expiration date, which is in 2 days. Eeeek! Ghlug glug glug .... [PLite is very sleepy after his oj.] What a cutie:)
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Wart
Pimply Teenager
Posts: 65
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Post by Wart on Sept 17, 2010 19:22:46 GMT -5
I think Avrilly & Frito are too nice. I haf actually met people who have read only 1-2 books in their lives and they think thats just fine. If they had to read books for class, they go on the internut, read synopsis & bullshit their way through the tests. Or they watch the movie or TV serial, of which the BBC has tons, from Oscar Wilde to Dickens to EM Forster. HARRY POTTER & TWILIGHT are more like abberations, I think, and TWILIGHT is lousy literature! Why do you think TWILIGHT is lousy? And why TWILIGHT and HARRY POTTER aberrations? I know people who are illiterate. And they're perfectly fine with it and so am I. On these islands, there are many places where people have never learned to read. There are wisewomen. shamans, cowboys, gardeners and fishermen. Do you think they re intellectually impoverished? Or are we just talking about my generation?
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Post by PigsnieLite on Sept 17, 2010 20:44:03 GMT -5
Actually I wuz thinking more of Western peoples who have the opportunity to go to school, but dont take advantage of it. I wuz in a high school class the other day, and half the students were secretly texting! Although the teach probably knew but didnt care, or had tried to do something before, and it didnt work. TEXTING in class! Hokay, I know I sound like an *innocent* on this issue, but I think this is shocking and it Sucks. You are in class, you are there to learn stuff, so you dont go out in the world, a complete idioot. Wait till you graduate from high school, Texting Jersey Shore Kiddies -- becuz you are in for a Rotten Surprise called ... UNEMPLOYMENT! And yes, Wortle, I know lots of people who are illiterate too -- like a number of my mums family who are fishermen, but it wasnt them I wuz referring to. I am talking about some of my former classmates and this teenaged twerp who almost ran me over becuz he wuz Texting! F****** A******!! PS. I have only read the first TWILIGHT book and it seemed childish to me. I have read 4 HARRY POTTER books, and I must say that Rowling is the Superior writer. By aberration, I mean that most kids only became avid readers when these books were published, but probably stopped reading after the concluding volumes came out. I hope this didnt happen, but I suspect this is so. A few weeks ago, I wuz eavesdropping on three kids being interviewed for a job (not at the BBC), and when asked whut wuz the last book they read, all three said HARRY POTTER AND THE DEATHLY HALLOWS.
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Post by PigsnieLite on Sept 17, 2010 21:03:33 GMT -5
PS. Is JERSEY SHORE popular in Hawaii? Becuz Ive seen it here on MTV and my mouth fell agape at this group of ... er ... persoins. [PLite is skeered of making Wortle mad again.] Coinkidentally, an article in NY Times explores a particularly Wikipedean issoo! www.nytimes.com/2010/09/18/business/media/18spoiler.html?_r=1&hp
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Post by Avril on Sept 17, 2010 22:13:37 GMT -5
Avril, I think you're over-reacting to Sunny's remark on "meditation" The word was just brought up as an example of something he would google. I was surprised at this admonishment. Sunny could have picked another word like papaya or "pyroclastc flow" The remarks about kids not needing to go to school or the copying and pasting of text on the Internet to essays doesn't advocate plagiarism or that he doesn't want the doc at his hospital to be educated. When I was a kid, I totally hated writing essays and going to the library and researching. I thought it was stupid and I still think it is even though I am a scientist now. You might want to chill. It's interesting that you think I'm not chilled. You've obviously not seen me angry, or even warm. I'm not admonishing Sunfrog, simply pointing out that he cannot know as much as I do about something I've done for over thirty years simply by looking it up on Google. It seems he's unaware of that, or he wouldn't have said it. In fact, having said that he does know as much as I do about meditation - or anything else he might have picked as an example of his point - proves he knows nothing about it at all, even what he might have read. I'm sure he knows more than I do about heaps of things. I certainly wouldn't insult him by telling I know as much as he does by reading a spurious article by an unknown, unverified source for thirty seconds. The thing is, he opened this door by saying he didn't think a counselling student should fail on the basis of plagiarism. That's not just about laziness or disinterest in studying, research or qualifications, it's about lack of ethics and fraud. If tertiary education doesn't insist on academic standards the ones who suffer are members of the public who rely on those standards of education being maintained. By the way, I notice the student in question has appealed and been granted a pass (not by me, his educator, but by someone in Admin) on the basis of his Elite Athlete status. Who do I tell not to go to this fellow for counselling, despite his apparent qualifications?
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Post by Frito Freddie on Sept 17, 2010 22:39:03 GMT -5
Erm . . . no we don't watch JERSEY SHORE.
Here's where our thoughts on the "LIFE OF THE MIND" differs from yours. As much as I love to read and write stuff, as a people, we do not place as much value on Western literature . . or classics. We are linked to the land, to our ancestors, to our families . . . The younger generations of this family . . . well most of us are perhaps well educated . . . but it is a means to an end. We study and work hard to get a job and place food on the table. But really--our treasure is working the land and the sea. In the sunrise and the rain and the volcano. This is our passion.
Some people are not meant for books. Their life is elsewhere. I do realize a lot of kids cheat or have no interest in reading. They are KIDS. They grow up! People make mistakes. Some will never learn but what can we do about that?
This generation--- perhaps--is too clever for its own good. They assume technology will replace "education." Some have been very successful without a life of the mind. They are even happy.
As Charles Schulz says:
My life has no purpose, no direction, no aim, no meaning, and yet I'm happy. I can't figure it out. What am I doing right?
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Wart
Pimply Teenager
Posts: 65
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Post by Wart on Sept 17, 2010 23:14:19 GMT -5
This is all Sunfrog wrote: I've been thinking about this for a while. I'm not so sure this should get a fail. When you do a report you look up the stuff in a book and then rewrite it in your own words. That's the same as google without the manual writing because copy and paste is easier. What's the difference? I have all the information in the world available to me right now. I don't know a thing about transendential meditation, I don't even know how to spell it, yet in 5 minutes I can know as much as Avril does about it thanks to the Google. By tomorrow morning I will be an expert in it and in a few days I will reach enlightenment. This is the power of Google. I think the student should get at least a C for knowing how to use Google. He would get a B if he also knew how to use spell check. Google is to schoolwork as a calculator is to math. I feel I am rambling. This is because I haven't figured it out yet, but Google changes everything. I'm not sure kids even need to go to school anymore. I'm not sure I need long term memory with Google either, and I'm pretty sure Google will cause the gap between smart and stupid to get wider. The internet has changed the way people think, but only if they use it correctly. Something weird is happening to us because of the internet. I just haven't figured it out yet. I'll think about it on the bus. I'm late for work. THIS IS IT! THIS IS ALL OF IT! Read it please! Again! I find this statement of your interesing: You've obviously not seen me angry, or even warm. Well, you have obviously not read enough off Sunfrog's posts to figure out where he is coming from. (Of course, since you are a therapist for over 30 years . . . and I've only been reading Sun's post for 10 years, possible 15 . . . ) It was a light-hearted post. He is not insulting you. Lack of ethics and fraud . . . jeez . . .get a grip! If you are angry about that student and his elite Athlete status . . . don't take it out on us! You're not admonishing Sunny . . . you were pointing out how little he knows compared to you? You wrote 2 paragraphs on how much you know about meditation. I'm outta here! GOODBYE!
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